Hitoshi Kitada (firstname.lastname@example.org)
Sun, 6 Jun 1999 10:56:13 +0900
----- Original Message -----
From: Stephen P. King <email@example.com>
To: Matti Pitkanen <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Sent: Saturday, June 05, 1999 4:06 AM
Subject: [time 384] Re: [time 380] Re: [time 376] What are observers
> Hi Matti,
> Matti Pitkanen wrote:
> > On Tue, 1 Jun 1999, Stephen P. King wrote:
> > > Is this why you say that p-adic "universe" is
> > Purely p-adic universe obeying some field equations. Yes.
> > The situation TGD framework situation seems to be the
> > following.
> > a) Real spacetime and also other geometric objects (imbedding
> > space, configuration space, configuration space spinor
> > mapped to their p-adic counterparts.
> > b) The mapping is unique from General Coordinate Invariance and
> > phase preserving canonical identification which I told about in
> > posting (recall Pythagorean phases, parallel with quantum
> > theory, etc...) but the direct image is not continuous p-adic
> > c) One must replace the direct image with its minimal
> > and continue this to p-adically smooth surface satisfying p-adic
> > counterparts of field equations. This completion is possible
> > of p-adic nondeterminism.
> > Consider c) more precisely:
> > a) The mapping of imbedding space to its p-adic counterpart is
> > and defined by phase preserving canonical identification. It
> > map of spacetime to its p-adic counterpart somehow.
> > b) The p-adic counterparts of field equations determining
> > surface must be satisfied satisfied.
> > c) Canonical image must coincide with p-adic spacetime surface
> > *maximal resolution* allowed by p-adic field equations.
> > c) means that *minimal pinary cutoff of the canonical image of
> > spacetime surface* (the preferred imbedding space coordinates
> > spacetime points are replaced with their pinary cutoffs)
> > discrete set of points coincides with the the pinary cutoff of
> > spacetime surface satisfying the p-adic field equations.
> > **This is made possible by p-adic nondeterminism!**
> > Phase preserving canonical identification map plus continuation
> > minimal pinary cutoff of p-adic image to smooth p-adic object
> > recipe in the construction of p-adic counterparts of all real
> > (configuration spinor field basis, kernel of time development
> > satisfying Schrodinger type equation,..).
> > **Important: one must distinguish p-adic nondeterminism from the
> > classical nondeterminism of Kaehler action present also in real
> > also this feature forces 'coinductive' philosophy. One cannot
> > or retrodict everything from initial values for some snapshot.**
> > Thus it would seem that classical nondeterminism of Kaehler
> > absolute crucial for cognition and possibility to have conscious
> > experience with contents localized in time, forces also
> > 'coinductive' approach!
> > > [SPK]
> > > > > I would qualify the "either or" operation as to imply that
it is only
> > > > > meaningful in a finite context with non-zero error terms.
> > > [MP]
> > > > I think that this would be choice of philosophy with
accuracy of epsilon.
> > > > I am not very enthusiastic about philosophy with accuracy
> > >
> > > I understand, but it "works"! We can appeal to Platonic
Ideals that are
> > > Absolute truths, but we both understand that these are
unknowable from a
> > > local stance and thus we are left with the reality of non-zero
> > > in our wfft's statements. This is, explicitly, the message of
> > > logic and, implicitly, the message of probability theory. I
> > > have the "uncertainty" out in the open, where I can keep track
> > >
> > This is similar to dissipative world of standard physics, which
> > discussed in qmind recently. Basic physics
> > (definining quantum histories) is reversible but observed
> > irreversible. The reason for dissipation is that quantum jumps
> > histories change the history all the time. Dissipative
> > replaces the sequence of quantum jumps between quantum histories
> > with *single dissipative history*. This definitely wrong
> > and mathematically ugly picture provides however practical
> > description.
> > By the way, macroscopic irreversibelity can be regarded
> > as a direct signature for quantum jumps between quantum
> > and is visible to everyone since the only (as I believe)
> > to understand dissipation and reversibelity simultaneously at
> > level is based on this concept.
> > Growing old must be one of the basic irreversible processes.
> > like chairs and desks grow old and must be performing quantum
> > perhaps also macroscopic ones now and then, and hence must have
> > consciousness. Hydrodynamic flow dissipates rapidly and must
> > moments of consciousness (what it is to be a water flow
> > growing old and losing kinetic energy gradually but
> I highly recommend Michael C Mackey's book: Time's Arrow: The
> of Thermodynamic Behavior. Springer-Verlag, 1992. Prof. Mackey has
> proven that invertible physics can not describe worlds with time!
> you talking about "dissipative structures"?
> I remember an old hypothesis of mine that the dissipation of
> -like have you mention above- is a function of error increasing
> compared to some global standard) in a toy world in which all
> were point to point teleportations... I never figured out how to
> formalize it. :(
> > > snip
> > >
> > > I would like to discuss this notion separately! I am
> > > Information Theory book that covers the Real version and your
> > > here helps be gain a better intuition of your thinking! :)
> > >
> > OK
> Entropy Optimization Principles With Applications by J. N. Kapur,
> KesavanAcademic Press, 1992 ASIN: 0123976707
> > > [SPK]
> > > > > This would be the case for single observers? The basis of
the phase may
> > > > > be different for another observer! This is like having
more than one
> > > > > convex vector space (subsets of Universe) in which to
embed the "overall
> > > > > phase".
> > > >
> > > > In TGD there is only single huge state space describing the
> > > > universe. Strong form of NMP selects subsystem-complement
> > > > decomposiotion of state space to two tensor product factors.
> > > > In p-adic context situation becomes more practical since NMP
> > > > separately to subsystems with vanishing entanglement
> > >
> > > That "single huge state space" looks just like Hitoshi's
\phi in, for
> > > instance: http://www.kitada.com/time_III.html:
> > >
> > > "Our axiom 1 which asserts that the total universe, which will
> > > denoted \phi, is stationary means in its mathematical
> > > it is an eigenstate of a total Hamiltonian H. This means that
> > > universe \phi is an eternal truth, which cannot be explained
in terms of
> > > duration or time.
> > Yes. This is the standard physics with single objective
> > In TGD \phi changes from quantum jump to quantum jump. Otherwise
> > pictures are identical.
> I looks to me that your jumps are "seeing" only the local picture.
> have long thought that there are more than one \phi, in fact an
> "undecidable" infinity of them! They make up all the "proper
> the Universe, which is ALL.
> But, are you are using a different mechanism than Hitoshi to
> Becoming? I think it is your Kaehler action. I have not been able
> understand what it is!
> > > In fact, the eigenstate in itself contains no
> > > reference to time, as may be seen from its definition:
> > > for some real number \lambda. The reader might think that this
> > > definition just states that the entire universe \phi is frozen
> > > instant which lasts forever without a beginning or end.
> > In TGD \phi would be completely determined by its values of
> > boundary in strictly causal theory and one could say that
> > reduces to lightcone boundary: no psychological time. Classical
> > nondeterminism of Kaehler action changes the situation. In order
> > specify nondeterminism one must introduce moments of
> > spacetime surfaces, and data like this and these parameters
> > closely to time values around which contents of cs experience is
> > concentrated.
> I think that your \phi and Hitoshi's \phi are very different!
> LSs has no lightcone structure internal, all spacetimes and their
> defining lightcone structures are constructed from interactions
> Local Systems. This is why I say that your work is coming from the
> opposite direction from Hitoshi's.
> > > However, as we
> > > will see, the total universe \phi has
> > > infinite degrees of freedom inside itself, as internal motion
> > > and local systems, and never freezes. Therefore, as an
> > > the universe \phi does not change, however, at the same time,
it is not
> > > frozen internally. These two seemingly contradictory aspects
> > > universe \phi are possible by virtue of the quantum mechanical
> > > the definition of eigenstates."
> > >
> > I think that I understand this. System can have vanishing
> > when component systems have nonvanishing momenta.
> > If phi does not change it seems that universe has zero energy.
> > If one applies naively the idea that energy is additive one
> > conclude that negative energies must be present. Gravitational
> > energy?
> Yes, if we use your formalism. In the level of the whole, all
> properties (energy included) sum to zero at U! This is not the
> vacuum, such is an inference construction given observations as we
> not ever observe a vacuum!
> > By the way, also in TGD zero energies might be possible if
> > surface is allowed to have time orientation opposite to that of
> > imbedding space. I do not really know whether to allow this or
> > The energy densities of various spacetime sheets could sum up to
> > Everything would be created from emptiness!
> The embedding space is CP^2? "Creation from emptiness"? Sort of,
> again, this is an inference not an observation!
> > > [SPK]
> > > The role of Diff^4 is localized in LS theory such that
it is not
> > > assumed to cover \phi at the totality level! We only have
> > > the set of simultaneous observables (time-like hypersuface?)
> > > individual observers. Thus it is not a single Diff^4 group for
> > > observers, but one Diff^4 for each observer, and thus a
> > > space-time for each observer. Of course, when we generalize
> > > as you have done by using p-adics, we get the "many sheeted"
> > > and can have overlapping and underlapping of the sheets...
> I am not sure that Hitoshi agrees with this take of LS theory...
> we will see were it takes us... :)
> > So you don't assume that different LS:s integrate to single
> > surface. In fact, manysheeted spacetime makes sense also in
> > context: point is that different spacetime sheets allow
> > topology which is very useful in the construction of QFT limit:
> > in excellent approximation one can construct QFT in single
> > of this kind forgetting what happens on boundaries.
> Yes, the very idea of integration is changed since we do not have
> single metric or gauge or norm, etc. ("a priori synthetics"), for
> possible observers! Classical physics is blind to this idea
> its assumption of a Universal Observer (GOD) fixing the a priori
> synthetics for all. One we realize that such an assumption is
> and that observers can only be finite (although hierarchies are
> rule!) we find that integration is no longer possible in the
> sense by using infinitesimal pieces. Thus my complaints about
> infinitesimals and my attempt to discuss Herman Weyl's original
> invariant geometry!
> My main reasoning for thinking that Weyl is correct is that the
> smearing of spectra is not observable since individual LSs can
> sample discretely each other's behavior and so each have convex
> probability distributions of their own sets of observables. This
> implicated by the idea that each observer (which is composed of a
> partial ordering of observations, as you show) has a different
> spacetime, given any particular moment. Thus your notion of
> jumps makes sense to me. :)
> > > > The power of General Coordinate Invariance is remarkable: it
> > > > practically fixed the general form of the theory totally.
> > > > space geometry; quantum jump between quantum histories
concept fixing the
> > > > general structure of TGD inspired theory of consciousness;
and finally the
> > > > mapping of real spacetime surfaces to their p-adic
> > > > and p-adicization of entire TGD, which I told in some
> > >
> > > Yes, GCI is powerfull but it is far to restricive in the
> > Yes! But this might be its power! Only month ago I was ready to
> > the possibility of giving up GCI since it seemed that it simply
> > allow p-adicization of quantum TGD.
> Could you elaborate?
> > > It is necessary to say "the laws of physics look the same to
> > > but this assumes that "all observers" form a convex set
> > > and that there is only one such set.
> > This statement goes outside my mathematical intuitions (convex
> > Again this dangerous notion of 'observers': what about replacing
> > it with 'observations'?
> A convex set here is an all inclusive collection. Observers are
> by partial orderings of observations and a partial ordering of
> events that encode the information content of the observations.
> follow from the duality of physical "events", and information
> See Pratt's work.
> > > I claim that there is not, there an
> > > an unenumerable number of such sets that are "almost convex"
> > > they have a fuzzy boundary instead of a crisp binary boundary.
> > > notion is part of the "window" notion that represents the
> > > the stream in my discussion of Peter's work.
> > > In sort I say, "all observers that have similar enough
perceptions of a
> > > *set of physics* can communicate with non-zero
> > > this implies that observers that have different physics can
> > > communicate anything to each other other than noise! But,
> > > sufficient "interactive computational" time, ways to decode
> > > from the noise become possible.
> > >
> > 'Physics' is cognitive representation for what happens in
> Yes! But note that this implies that were is not a single
> just as there is not a single observer, and thus there are more
> "cognitive representation" and "external world"! The classical
> is the assumption of a single "external world" observable by an
> arbitrary observer (i.e. is an element in at least one of the
> identified with the Totality Universe. This notion is "not even
> It is impossible!
> > > [SPK]
> > > > > I would not assume a unique metric (inner product
norm) for the
> > > > > integration, such assume that the configuration spaces of
> > > > > all have the same size "parts", this is wrong! My comments
> > > > > Weyl's geometry speaks to this. We solve the indefinite
> > > > > by showing that observers can only sample discrete
partitions of the
> > > > > continuous spectra and thus, just as Weyl said, the
> > > > > unobservable just like "pure" states!
> > > > >
> > > > In TGD approach the 'physics as geometry' philosophy
> > > > fixes the inner product to very high degree. p-Adicization
> > > > seems however necessary. Real valued S-matrix elements
simply do not
> > > > exist mathematically. Integration in infinite-dimensional
> > > > is extremely tricky. Consider only volume of
> > > > it is typically zero or infinite.
> Umm, but notice that the number of possible geometries of
> manifolds is nonenumerable infinity! This there is more that one
> product! I am identifying an observer with each manifold. To quote
> > I vaguely remember that the problem for the next dimension up
> > is Turing machine equivalent, so no classification procedure can
> > (although this was a long time ago - I'm not sure about that).
> This is true; it's because a 4-manifold can have an arbitrary
> as its fundamental group, and the question of whether two infinite
> are equivalent is undecidable.
> - Cris Moore, Santa Fe Institute
> As I stepped out upon the landing my heart was already down the
> Cris Moore Santa Fe Institute email@example.com
> I am unfamiliar with the specifics of the S-matrix. :( I have read
> the volume of an infinite dimensional sphere is "on the surface"
> > > But is this "fixing" necessarily unique for all possible
> > > strictly not definable relative to finite subsets of
> > > observers? If it is, then there is a serious problem with my
> > In TGD the inner product belongs to the Platonic Realm and is
> > observer/observation dependent. The inner
> > product is for the states of entire universe, for phi:s as you
> > Jumps between quantum histories phi_1--> phi_2 pjio_2-->phi_3
> So are you saying that there is only one inner product for the
> Totality? I do not think so...
> > The inner product for configuration space spinor fields reduces
> > product ofm configuration space spinors integrated over entire
> > configuration space of 3-surfaces. Inner product of spinors is
> > space inner product for fermions (oscillator operators create
> > In your case you have single phi and inner product must be inner
> > for some subsystem (LS?). Hence situation is different from that
> > in TGD.
> I am getting confused. :( We need to ask Hitoshi about these
If you argue in LS theory, the inner products are of an infinite
number, proper to each Local System. I.e. LS theory considers an
infinite number of Hilbert spaces describing the inner state of each
observer's system. The outside of an observer's system is not
described by Hilbert spaces. Only a part of the outside that is an
object of an observation is described by a Hilbert space structure.
In LS theory, the phenomena arise by the participation of the
observer. In this sense, my standpoint is the same as the Wheeler's
The total state \phi of the universe is not considered in a Hilbert
space. It represents just the state of the total universe, which
does not evolve. No inner product is considered regarding \phi.
> > > snip
> > >
> > > [SPK]
> > > > > Making "'our minds' as outsider" is modeling our minds, it
> > > > > give a complete knowledge of the subjective stance, but we
can use it as
> > > > > information from which to infer sets of observables and
> > > > > superselection rules that order them. I call this
> > > > > definiteness". I can not say with probability 1 what you
see, but I can
> > > > > calculate what you might see that I can also see. Does
this make sense?
> > > > > It is like figuring out if a distant observer that I can
talk to on a
> > > > > radio can observe something similar to what I do. I can
not "see" what
> > > > > he sees, but I can say with high certainty (low error)
that we observer
> > > > > "the same thing".
> > > [MP]
> > > > Your argument certainly makes sense. What I am however
troubled is the
> > > > introduction of observers as fundamental (the concept is of
> > > > practical approximation). Introduction of observers at
> > > > level leads to consistency conditions on the observations
> > > > correspond to quantum jumps.
> > >
> > > Neither the "observer" nor the "jumps" are
"fundamental", as I see it;
> > > they are complementary. Having one without the other renders
> > > meaningless! Existence is the grundlagen.
> > I think that I disagree. The use of single phi means
> > (sorry!(;-)) world view with single objective reality.
> > to problems with inner product besides all these social
Single \phi does not need any inner product. By materialism, what do
> > TGD I allow all possible phis, quantum histories. TGD is
> > theory in strong sense.
In the observable world for an observer, all histories are possible.
\phi does not appear in observations. The universe \phi is different
from the observed universe.
> Thus I am proposing many \phi! :)
To each obsevation, there corresponds a proper universe. In this
sense, there are many \phi, where \phi is used in different meaning
from the \phi in the above.
> > > [MP]
> > > > Introducing only observations one can avoid this problem.
> > > > The point is that *You and I only rarely do we both
> > > > moment of consciousness*. If we participate the same moment
> > > > consciousness and have separate experiences (are
unentangled) then what
> > > > we see, are not views about the same landscape: no
> > >
> > > I am thinking about how it is that we can "participate
[in] the same
> > > moment of consciousness"! :) I think of this as a correlation
> > > the observation (= "quantum jump"). I am identifying
> > > co-inductions (and/or bisimulations?) between stream, which
> > > histories" to me, just in different clothing. :)
> > >
> >From TGD view point I see co-induction and bisimulation is
> > level concepts related to cognitive representations, which
> > TGD to cognitive spacetime sheets. Quantum jump is lower level
> The quantum jump is the "primitive", yes! :)
> > Participation in same quantum jump with separate conscious
> > mean experiences about different sub-Universes/tensor product
> > overall state space. Objects of perception are different.
> Yes. But, there is an illusion that the "same" object is observed
> more than one observer. Like this text file, as you read it on
> computer. The particular representation you read is *not* the one
> writing, even though it contains very similar information content
> what I am presently typing (encoding). ;)
> > > > When we are entangled we see the same
> > > > thing but our conscious experiences fuse together so that
there is only
> > > > single experiencer 'we'! Consistency problem disapppears in
> > > > three cases!
> > > This situation describes what happens in the infinite
limit only! This
> > > is the level of the Grundlagen and there is no duality of
> > > object here, thus you are correct. :)
> > No limit is needed. Entanglement as binding solves the binding
> > of neurophysiology (how different components of conscious
> > fuse to form single experience and what this corresponds
> > This is basic hypothesis of TGD inspired theory of
> :) Interesting.
> > When we are entangled, binding occurs and experience is 'we',
> > of successful communication(;-).
> This is "error minimized bisimulation"!
> > > We need something to use as a starting point in our
model of QGR; thus,
> > > yes, it is am "assumption", but we make it clear what we mean
> > > "observer": an observer is defined as a poset (partial
> > > quantum jumps over an ensemble of quantum histories . This
> > > insufficient for the final version, of course; I am just
trying to hone
> > > in on it. :) We need to be able to model concurrency!
> > >
> > Concurrency?
> Concurrent: "Existing or running together", "Acting jointly". The
> involves many systems existing "simultaneously" yet interactions
> subject to constraints such that not all interactions can occur
> simultaneously with respect to any single system. An example is
> construction of a house: all of the workers "exist"
> they can not do their work on a single house simultaneously. There
> order or schedule in which they can do their jobs. I say that
> exists because everything can not happen at once." in this sense.
> Here are some links:
> This notion is very important in the reasoning that time is not
> is an "unfolding" and that this "unfolding" is irreducible to some
> aspect of a static spacetime model of the Universe. I recommend
> writings of Henri Bergson about this notion... Thus it is also why
> questions involving computation!
> > > [MP]
> > > > > > In a more general framework there is still one
> > > > > > sense if state function collapse is identified as moment
> > > > > > consciousness.
> > > > > > What principle determines which subsystem suffers wave
> > > > > > collapse.
> > > > > > Strong NMP answers this question in TGD approach.
> > > [SPK]
> > > > > I think it is a local optimization! Thus TDG seems
to be in the
> > > > > right track! :)
> > > [MP]
> > > > Strong NMP as such is formulated for entire universe. It
reduces to local
> > > > optimization in p-adic context: this is very important
result. One can
> > > > apply it to brain/neuron, etc. forgetting the rest of the
> > > > In real context this does not occur.
> > >
> > > Thus we agree on the necessity of p-adics! :)
> > Yes. p-Adics are also necessary for evolution.
> > > > The reason for localization in p-adic context is following.
> > > > If universe decomposes to mutually unentangled
> > > > can have even finite size) then also general subsystem
> > > > quantum jump has similar decomposition. The real
> > > > entanglement entropy must (I leave it as an exercise why!)
be defined as
> > > > sum for the real counterparts of p-adic entropies for
> > > > of subsystem. Hence maximization of negentropy gain
> > > > to that occurring separately in each unentangled
sub-universe and one
> > > > obtains the desired localization.
> > >
> > > Hitoshi is proposing that Local Systems are "mutually
> > > sub-Universes" composed of a finite number of parts which he
> > > "quantum particles". They become LSs themselves when we shift
to a frame
> > > of observation that "focusses" on them. I believe that the
> > > nesting that this manifests is a clear example of p-adic
> > > my interest in your thinking. :)
> > p-Adic ultrametricy leads naturally to hierarchical structures.
> > in which each node has p branches. Second hierarchical
> > p-adic spacetime sheets with various values of p glued on each
> Hitoshi's model, as I understand it does not model how "histories"
> generated; histories in the sense of ordering of physical events
> follow what is considered to be causal ordering.
> > > We do not have a clear definition of entropy in
Hitoshi's papers, in
> > > my opinion, so I am very interested in your reasoning here. :)
> > > this "maximization of negentropy gain" as an example of
> > > It is local to individual LSs (as "unentangled
> > > thus your conclusion follows. :)
> > There is strong similarity. But strong NMP is not like ordinary
> > variational principles. It does not imply deterministic time
> > since each quantum jump/quantum measurement has several possible
> > outcomes. It only selects quantum jump. One cannot predict the
> > using this variational principle since one ends up to a garden
> > of branching paths.
> So strong NMP gives us a model of how selection occurs? I would
> it is analogous to how environmental pressures select organisms by
> culling the unfit...
> > The interpretation of absolute minimization of Kaehler action as
> > maximation of classical nondeterminism<--> cognitive resources
> > is much nearer to Frieden's ideas. Note however that also now
> > nondetermninsm is involved!
> > There are strong reasons to believe that the most
> > interesting quantum jumps select between branches of classical
> > multifurcations: particle states being entangled with the
> > of multifurcation. Classical and quantum nondeterminism would be
> > very closely related!
> Is nondeterminism modelable mathematically by "one to many" and
> to one" mappings?
> > Finally, principle what I call 'ontogeny repeats phylogeny'
> > states that nondeterminism time development at spacetime level
> > mimicks time development by quantum jumps at the level
> > of configuration space. This could perhaps mean that
> > p-adic nondetermism mimicks/simulates quantum nondetermism.
> I might say that the two are dual in a relative sense, relative to
> > There would be kind of holy trinity of all three
> Could you elaborate? :)
> More later,
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