**Matti Pitkanen** (*matpitka@pcu.helsinki.fi*)

*Thu, 22 Jul 1999 18:29:49 +0300 (EET DST)*

**Messages sorted by:**[ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ]**Next message:**Matti Pitkanen: "[time 467] Thoughts as self-generating cascades"**Previous message:**Stephen P. King: "[time 465] Re: [time 464] Parallel transport, etc...."**In reply to:**Matti Pitkanen: "[time 464] Parallel transport, etc...."**Next in thread:**Matti Pitkanen: "[time 467] Thoughts as self-generating cascades"

On Thu, 22 Jul 1999, Stephen P. King wrote:

*> Dear Matti,
*

*>
*

*> Umm, I wish we could spend some time talking about the computational
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*> issue. It is the crux of my reasoning! It is said by mystics that we are
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*> the Universe "experiencing it-self". I find this notion to be directly
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*> reflected in the fact that the behaviour of the world as it is observed
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*> can not be considered as "existing a priori". The ideas involved in
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*> Plato's cave are useful in illustrating that the experience's of
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*> individuals are "mere shadows of an external Reality", but the
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*> ontological status of this "Reality" is very much in need of discussion!
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*> Reality can not be an a priori given! (See Kant's discussion of "a
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*> priori synthetic", he has to appeal to divinity to allow for them!
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*> http://www.bu.edu/wcp/Papers/Meta/MetaBurg.htm)
*

I am actually ending up with something resembling computational

picture in some respects. I am not sure whether I really

managed to send the small digression about selves and thoughts.

In any case, I send a polished version as separate mail.

*>
*

*> Here is the comment of experts:
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*> ***
*

*> On 29 Apr 1999 08:08:52 GMT,
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*> Peter Hines wrote:
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*> > I vaguely remember that the problem for the next dimension up (4-manifolds)
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*> > is Turing machine equivalent, so no classification procedure can exist
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*> > (although this was a long time ago - I'm not sure about that).
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*>
*

*> This is true; it's because a 4-manifold can have an arbitrary group
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*> as its fundamental group, and the question of whether two infinite
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*> groups
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*> are equivalent is undecidable.
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*>
*

*> - Cris Moore, Santa Fe Institute
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*> ***
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*>
*

*> This property of "equivalence" is, to me, what an observation is all
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*> about! The notion that "observations" are mappings between subsets of
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*> the Universe U seems appropriate (it gives us a way to account for the
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*> existence of non-equilibria!) and thus the consideration that properties
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*> of objects are given only in the context of a finite mapping between
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*> subsets of U seems to follow.
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*> It seems that Time is a subjective notion derived from the sequences of
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*> observations that each subset of the Universe goes through in its
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*> "experiencing of itself". To postulate that the properties are given
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*> prior to the observations is to postulate that somehow the Universe
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*> pre-computed the classification of the 4-manifold involved in all
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*> possible experiences. (It seems obvious that any experience involves a
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*> spatial-temporal framing, thus a 4-manifold!)
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*> I am trying to advance the notion that what we are trying to model in
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*> physics is the very computation of the Universe! To assume that it is
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*> already somehow "out there" is to assume that knowledge can be gotten
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*> for free, and this is clearly WRONG!
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*> I will respond to the [time 464] post in detail shortly. :-)
*

We have opposite aims and starting points. I try to understand how some

computational aspects result from my own picture!

Best,

MP

*> Later,
*

*>
*

*> Stephen
*

*>
*

*> PS, I got your responce about the embeding space as I wrote this and my
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*> point is very more strongly in my mind!
*

*>
*

**Next message:**Matti Pitkanen: "[time 467] Thoughts as self-generating cascades"**Previous message:**Stephen P. King: "[time 465] Re: [time 464] Parallel transport, etc...."**In reply to:**Matti Pitkanen: "[time 464] Parallel transport, etc...."**Next in thread:**Matti Pitkanen: "[time 467] Thoughts as self-generating cascades"

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