**Matti Pitkanen** (*matpitka@pcu.helsinki.fi*)

*Sun, 25 Jul 1999 12:21:54 +0300 (EET DST)*

**Messages sorted by:**[ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ]**Next message:**Stephen P. King: "[time 495] Re: [time 494] Observation models"**Previous message:**Matti Pitkanen: "[time 493] Re:[time 486] Re: [time 479] Parallel translation,etc... part V"**Next in thread:**Stephen P. King: "[time 495] Re: [time 494] Observation models"

Dear Matti,

This is a marathon of thought! :-)

[MP] It ended! I have been stting for five hours at computer

and write all replys since my son and his girl friend come tomorrow

and I will be off from terminal.

Matti Pitkanen wrote:

[MP]

*> > > > b) *Spacetime* are dynamical and not unique and quantum states
*

*> > > > are superpositions of classical spacetime surface. The
*

localization

*> > > > in zero modes associated with every quantum jump localizes
*

quantum

*> > > > history to the set of spacetime surfaces which are identical in
*

*> > > > macroscopic aspects characterized by zero modes.
*

[SPK]

*> > > Does this implicitly assume a unique set of measuring "tools"
*

*> > > for all possible observers?
*

[MP]

*> > No. I think that measuring tools is not fundamental concept: it is
*

*> > too 'classical'. Quantum measurement is more promising starting point.
*

*> > Localization in zero modes obviously can be regarded as
*

*> > *quantum measurement* of zero modes: this of course does not mean
*

*> > that contents of conscious experience would contains values of
*

*> > zero mode coordinates(:-)!
*

[SPK]

*> > Why not? If the causal connective structure of the space-time framing
*

*> > of an experience is given by a set of null rays (this is what the
*

light

*> > cone structure is after all!)
*

[MP]

*> Good question. I belive that sensory information is to large extend
*

*> information about zero modes but that finite p-adic p characterizing
*

*> the self=observer, in particular finite size of self, gives limits for
*

*> this information: at most p*log(p)/log(2)
*

*> bits. There are infinity of zero modes so that
*

*> there is no hope of compressing the information contained by the
*

*> values of zero modes to finite number of bits.
*

This maybe relates to the Bremermann's Limit:

http://www.bestweb.net/~ca314159/BREMMANN.HTM You really need to read

Kosko's Information wave mechanics! I'll include it in the package...

[SPK]

*> >"Localization in the zero modes" is
*

*> > equivalent to my concept of "constructing a space-time"! The "values
*

of

*> > zero mode coordinates" is a strictly relative notion! This is why
*

*> > tensors are needed to model the movement of objects in space-time. The
*

*> > particular values used are irrelevant, what matters is that the
*

*> > information content can be communicated.
*

[MP]

I would say that localization in zero modes is equivalent

to measuring the classical aspects of spacetime and thus

fixing them. The quantum fluctuations remain but they do

not correspond to anything macroscopic.

[MP]

*> Yes. The values of zero modes coordinates is relative notion:
*

*> as such these number contain no information. Unless of course, one
*

*> can identify preferred coordinates fixed by symmetry considerations.
*

*> Perhaps it is the direct experience about localization which represents
*

*> what it is to have these values of zero modes.
*

Yes, and I believe that this occurs for all observers "no matter

where

or when"!

[SPK]

*> > Perhaps it would help me to explain that I believe that motion is
*

point

*> > to point teleportation rather than the classical motion of a
*

*> > transposition of a rigid object or wave within an independently
*

existing

*> > space.
*

[MP]

*> Intesting idea! This would be quantum level concept involving quantum
*

*> jump whereas ordinary classical motion is purely geometric concept.
*

YES! :-) The "distance" that is "crossed" in the quantum jump is

relatively null for the observer involved. Umm, the experiments being

down with quantum tunneling may give us falsifiability on this! It is

this notion that explains my initial discomfort with your wormholes

concept!

[MP] Quantum tunneling is well established concept. The Brownian like

hopping motion in zero modes quantum jump by quantum jump could

probably also regarded as kind of quantum tunneling.

http://www.sciam.com/askexpert/physics/physics29.html

"First, we have discovered that photons which tunnel through a quantum

barrier can apparently travel faster than light (see "Measurement of the

Single-Photon Tunneling Time" by A. M. Steinberg, P. G. Kwiat, and R. Y.

Chiao, Physical Review Letters, Vol. 71, page 708; 1993). Because of the

uncertainty principle, the photon has a small but very real chance of

appearing suddenly on the far side of the barrier, through a quantum

effect (the 'tunnel effect') which would seem impossible according to

classical physics. The tunnel effect is so fast that it seems to occur

faster than light."

(Others are thinking of this!

http://epunix.biols.susx.ac.uk/Home/John_Gribbin/quantum.htm#More_atoms

http://www.comcity.com/distance-time/,

http://hepweb.rl.ac.uk/ppUK/PhysFAQ/FTL.html,

http://lal.cs.byu.edu/ketav/issue_3.2/Lumin/lumin.html,

http://www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/~ndaniel1/qm_paper.html, )

[MP]

For couple of years ago I spent some time with this

topic. I had the idea that

manysheeted spacetime concept might be involved: photons

glued to different spacetime sheets spend different times while

travelling through long enough distances: the reason is

that induced metrics are different and lightlike geodesic

of spacetime surface are not lightlike geodesics of imbedding space.

Photon glued on spacetime surface spends more time in travelling

from A to B. Perhaps the Hubble constant discrepancies

and apparent cosmological constant have explanation in terms

of this phenomenon. This would not have anything to do with

quantum tunneling however.

[MP]

*> By the way, motion in zero modes occurs as hopping quantum jump by
*

quantum

*> jump:
*

*>
*

*> x1-->x2--x3---
*

*>
*

*> Just like Brownian motion. In fact, I believe that Brownian motion
*

*> indeed corresponds to this kind of motion. The possibility to
*

*> Brownian motion to move faster than light would not be a
*

*> result of nonrelativistic approximation but real physical
*

*> effect.
*

Yes! WE need to look at this very carefully! I say that the

forward

jumps ... -->x1 --> x2--> ...

are dual to "backward jumps" ... i2 <-- i1 <-- ... of logical

implication (following Pratt). It looks like this:

... -->x1 --> x2--> ... Time

| |

... |g |h ...

| |

... <--i2 <-- i1<-- ... Logic

were g and h are infomorphic bisimulations...

[MP] The problem is that logical causation and temporal causation

seem to have different directions unless one replaces A--> B with

not A <--- not B.

I would take only the upper part of the diagram:

... -->x1 --> x2--> ... Times for generation of subselves x1, x2

and denote selves by x1, x2,.... Since x2 is subself of x1

implication x1-->x2 is realized as set-theoretical inclusion.

Subself is implied by self and in correct temporal order!

There are several interpretations depending on the nature

of quantum jump: interpretation as logical causation

or as genuine set theoretic inclusions: selves as representation

for objects of figure. Entire figure as big self, background and

objects of figure as subselves containing smaller objects

as subsubselves.... Or tree like

structure of linguistic expression...

snip

[MP]

*> > I do not assume observer: self is closest to observer I can get.
*

*> > Sequence of quantum jumps during which informational time development
*

*> > operator does not generate p-adic entanglement. Observers
*

*> > do not exist anywhere! They, or selves, correspond to sequences of
*

*> > p-adically unentangling quantum jumps. This is extremely deep and
*

*> > important point.
*

[SPK]

*> > Umm, Yes, but, just because any given observer can not interact with
*

*> > all others, does not imply that they are not "out there". I am saying
*

*> > that there must exist an observer for every possible experience. Not
*

all

*> > experiences can be communicated within a world (remember how I define
*

*> > such!). This is why we can not observer objects traveling faster than
*

*> > light; we can not measure such motions because the observations of the
*

*> > observers can not be logically infered within our \epsilon of
*

accuracy.

*> > Logic contrains observations, not some a priori defineteness! Please
*

*> > recognize the failure of naive realism! Please!
*

[MP]

*> I realize the failure of naive realism. I have given up the notion
*

*> of single objective reality, I have given up the notion of
*

*> observer as continous stream of consciousness! I have given
*

*> up the standard notion of psychological time! I have given up
*

*> many standard dogmas to avoid paradoxes.
*

That is why I am so happy to discuss these silly ideas of mine

with you! :-)

[MP] Well, I am now finding quantum counterpart for those parts of

classical computationalism which belong to cognition. These

discussions have helped a lot!

*> What I am suggesting that communication cannot be modelled as mapping
*

*> between observers. Much more delicate process occurs: not
*

*> at the geometric level but at quantum level. Informational
*

*> time development U during quantum computation (that is U)
*

*> is what gives rise to communication between selves.
*

Exactly! :-) I have used the word "mapping" because I did not know

of a better one. It is bisimulation!

*> Quantum nondeterminism implies that conscious logic is
*

*> not sharp, it is erratic but extremely flexible.
*

Yes, this is why I advocate the use of fuzzy logic. Probabilistic

logic

works too, but it is not intuitive to me. :-(

snip

[MP]

*> > Actually the measurement can be said to be disjoint in well
*

*> > defined sense. Separate selves mutually unentangled.
*

[SPK]

*> > Yes! This is why separate selves have separate indentities! I say that
*

*> > experiences are "almost disjoint" since they differ in at least the
*

*> > "point of identity". The notion of a fixed point under a given set of
*

*> > transformations is what I considered before I has educated by Peter's
*

*> > work. The Self, within Peter's formalism, is a greatest fixed point, I
*

*> > think. Umm, I need to review his paper:
*

*> > http://www.cs.brown.edu/~pw/papers/math1.ps
*

[MP]

*> Quantum entanglement is what destroys selves. For instance, could
*

*> it be that the separate notes in chord correspond to
*

*> frequency-selves which have entangled to form chord-self?
*

*> This would explain why we do not hear separate notes but entire
*

*> chord.
*

This is why we can not do a "Vulcan Mind Meld"! It would be

impossible

to unentangle the two minds!

[MP] There are objections agains simple rule that unentangled

subselves are experienced as average subself by self

containing them. Probably the subselves must have large

enough mutual resemblance before they are averaged. Perhaps

they must have same p-adic prime, belong to same spacetime sheet:

something like that. Must think about.

*> By the way, the attempt to understand music in terms of self hierarchy
*

*> seems to be exciting. Metaphor for harmonious co-existence
*

*> seems to have direct translation to quantum self organization.
*

*> Harmoniously co-existing selves personal subselves to generate
*

*> higher 'enlightened' self having no decomposition into subselves
*

*> and having experience of oneness!(;-). Chords as enlightened
*

*> groups of notes in a state of Nirvana!
*

Yes, it is! Bohm has talked about this in his work...

[SPK]

*> > > But what is troubling me is the
*

*> > > notion that the localization is somehow independent of what it is
*

that

*> > > makes the poset different for each person.
*

*> > [MP]
*

*> > There is big localization in entire configuration space which
*

decomposes

*> > into sublocalizations for selves.
*

[SPK]

*> > How is the information content of this localization given? This is an
*

*> > infinite NP-Complete problem that requires ETERNITY to compute! It can
*

*> > not be given a priori!
*

[MP]

*> TGD generously provides this eternity! The quantum computation defined
*

*> by informational time development operator lasts infinite amount
*

*> of lightcone proper time (not our psychological time which
*

*> is quite different thing).
*

Yes! :-) I just try to think about how each observation involves

its own lightcone of causality...

[MP] In TGD framework causality is not involved at level of experiencing.

It is involved at the dynamics determining spacetimes as

absolute minima of Kahler action: that is at the level of configuration

space geometry. In your approach situation is obviously different.

*> Each moments of cs, meaning increment of psychological time by
*

something

*> like 10^4 Planck times, involves single quantum computation
*

*> lasting this infinite period of lightcone proper time. It seems that
*

*> NP-completeness is not a problem in TGD:eish Universe!
*

Ok.

*> Despite all this: I do not believe that universe exists by computing
*

*> itself.
*

Well, again, I am saying that it is the experiences that are being

computed...

[MP] Sorry: I understood that you more or less identified experiences as

universes: but you explained that this is not the case.

[SPK]

*> > This is my whole point as to why naive realism
*

*> > fails! "It is not even wrong"! Think of the ability to predict the
*

*> > weather on Earth, the computational power needed to predict with
*

*> > arditrary accuracy (limit \epsilon -> 0) instantly exceeds the
*

available

*> > matter in the observable world!
*

[MP]

*> Predicting is simulation, not existence! One must make sharp
*

*> distinction between these notions. As I already noticed
*

*> the idea of universe as computing itself seems to lead to
*

*> Munchausen paradox. Where is the hardware and software, can they
*

*> belong to the universe?
*

YES! Existence is static, tenseless. Local actuality is a

bi-simulation... I perceive you by predicting your behavior in order to

act accordingly and you do the same back. Now, think of many observers

doing this!

*> > If it can not be predicted, it can not
*

*> > be said to be determined, thus can not be observed either.
*

*> > The self is actualized within its own time as the interactions among
*

*> > the LSs carry out the computation of "what will happen next"! We
*

*> > construct our reality by interacting with each other. Read the
*

*> > introduction to Frieden's book again, he is saying what I am saying!
*

[MP]

*> I understand what you are saying. This is probably the only possible
*

*> consistent philosophy in the framework in which one does not introduce
*

*> quantum jump and replace single objective reality with all
*

*> possible objective realities allowed by physical theory.
*

Huh, how do you conclude that?

[MP] Well, I don't know! Somehow I interpreted the idea about

several almost non-intersecting spacetimes as geometric counterpart

for giving up the notion of single objective reality, which

is quantum concept.

snip

[MP]

*> > I agree that the assumption about pre-existing objective reality is
*

*> > error. But I do not identify objective reality as spacetime
*

*> > with observers imbedded but as quantum history. Imbedding space
*

*> > has nothing to do with observers nor objective realities: it
*

*> > only emerges as structure related to the configuration space which
*

*> > is also pregiven.
*

[SPK]

*> > Umm, perhaps I am misinterpreting what you mean by "pregiven"! I use a
*

*> > notion identical to what Peter uses in the definition of Interaction
*

*> > Machines! What is "pregiven" by one LS is not necessarily "pregiven"
*

by

*> > another! There is no way of entablishing absolute precedence, we only
*

*> > have finite "windows" within which an LS can have a configuration as
*

*> > actual.
*

[MP]

*> I think that a lot of confusion is created by different views about
*

*> imbedding space. I do not regard its points as reprsentations of events:
*

*> it is quite too simple thing for that.
*

Indeed! But, it is helpful as a concept to start out with...

[MP]

OK. It is certainly what Einstein believed. Classical geometric

structures in spacetime would characterize entire physics.

*> > This is another reason why the naive realism of Newton et al is just
*

*> > plain wrong! The fact is that the concurrent ordering of events is an
*

*> > infinite NP-Complete problem! Laplace and Minkowski's vision of the
*

*> > Universe as a static 4-manifold is just a hallucination!
*

[MP]

*> > You want to give up pre-existing spacetime and replace it with
*

something

*> > dynamical whereas I want to give
*

*> > up the notion of observer and replaced it with something quantum
*

*> > dynamical.
*

[SPK]

*> > YES! Matti, this is exactly what Hitoshi's model of Local Systems
*

does!

*> > Please read his papers again! The observer *IS* a quantum mechanical
*

*> > system. Hitoshi does not get into the nitty-gritty details of the
*

*> > composition of sub-LSs, but this is what your p-adic acomplish. I
*

firmly

*> > believe that your work is the needed generalization and extension of
*

*> > Hitoshi's idea! Tis is why I get so emotional when I participate in
*

*> > discussions with you! :-)
*

[MP]

*> I am well aware of the similarities. The notion of self
*

*> as subsystem able to remain unentangled and characterized by
*

*> p-adic prime p is much analogous to the notion of self.
*

*>
*

*> But there is big difference: I do not build mappings between observers.
*

*> My mapping corresponds to the mapping of real structures
*

*> to their p-adic counterparts, reality is mapped to p-adicity'. The view
*

*> of self about world is determined by his personal p-adicity:
*

*> for instance, information gains are limited to be below
*

*> p*log(p)/log(2) bits.
*

You are correct, my use of the idea of a mapping is a crutch. I am

learning how to communicate my mental pictures as I interact with you.

:-) It is the way that bisimulation works that lead me to use the notion

of mapping. Like Edelman's "re-entrant maps"

(http://madcow.newscientist.com/nsplus/insight/big3/conscious/8b.html,

http://www.williamcalvin.com/1980s/1988Science.htm,

http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit/1997/vol1/calvin_wh.html,

http://www.cogsci.soton.ac.uk/bbs/Archive/bbs.phillips.html)

Best,

MP

**Next message:**Stephen P. King: "[time 495] Re: [time 494] Observation models"**Previous message:**Matti Pitkanen: "[time 493] Re:[time 486] Re: [time 479] Parallel translation,etc... part V"**Next in thread:**Stephen P. King: "[time 495] Re: [time 494] Observation models"

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