[time 950] Re: [time 949] Re: [time 944] Goedel's incompleteness implies the existence of time

Stephen P. King (stephenk1@home.com)
Fri, 22 Oct 1999 11:07:56 -0400

Dear Hitoshi,

Hitoshi Kitada wrote:
> Dear Stephen,
> Thanks for your comments and helps in English. I corrected some points as in
> the LaTeX file attached.

        It is my pleasure to help! :-) One final editorial note: Perhaps the
word "general" would be better that "generic" in the phrase: "Thus [P_L,
P] = P_L P - P P_L = 0. But in generic this does not hold because ..."
        The final sentence of the paper is especially dear to me: "...time is
an indefinite desire to reach the balance that only the Universe [in
itself] has." I see this as being the key to the phenomenology of time
as expressed in the 'tension' of dissimilarity between the whole of the
Universe as a totality and the parts thereof. I am reminded of my
definitions of the word universe:

1) The Totality of Existence, All that exists. (This is the "objective"
2) The sum, set or class of all observables that a given observer may be
aware, measure, etc. of. (This is the "subjective definition")

        These two aspects, I believe are expressions of the fundamental
dichotomy at the heart of observation and the reason why time is a
subjective phenomena. There is also the possibility that the difficult
issues of entropy and potentials will be better understood in the light
of this brilliant statement by Hitoshi!

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Stephen P. King <stephenk1@home.com>
> To: Hitoshi Kitada <hitoshi@kitada.com>
> Sent: Friday, October 22, 1999 5:21 AM
> Subject: [time 944] Goedel's incompleteness implies the existence of time
> > Hi Hitoshi,
> >
> > I am presenting this version of your paper with some editorial comments
> > and pointers in [boxes] Egrammatical suggestions are not labeled EUmm,
> > it looks like I messed up the formatting of the original! :-(
> >
> >
> > >>Here is some excerpt from time_VI.tex. LaTeX file is attached, which is
> > available also at
> >
> > http://www.kitada.com/time_VI.tex (the link is not yet made in
> > index.html)
> >
> > A key is Goedel's incompleteness theorem, which assures the existence of
> > (local) time.>>
> >
> > [SPK]
> > We need to make this solid! I agree completely with the notion, having
> > independently arrived at a similar conclusion, but it appears that the
> > applicability of Goedel's Incompleteness theorem (GIT) to the Universe
> > is controversial to many people. I fail to see the problem that such
> > would have except perhaps they would like a solid, read "explicit",
> > mathematical relationship between physics and logic, which is the domain
> > of GIT]
> > We need to show that "observer cannot know that $E$ exists" follows
> > explicitly from "The theory of physics therefore includes an undecidable
> > proposition";
> This should be read
> > "observer cannot know that $E$ exists" contradicts
> > "The theory of physics therefore includes an undecidable
> > proposition"
> The point in this problem would be to show that one i.e. observer can
> construct a proposition that proves the existence of the exterior $E$. I
> changed the descriptions in sections 2 and 5 as in the attached file.

        I agree! This is excellent. For all Time List readers there is a
discussion of the implications of Goedel's Incompleteness Theorem at:
> > this must be air-tight! I believe that your idea here is
> > correct, but I believe that we must be able to defend against the
> > skepticism. Here is an example:
> >
> http://members.home.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/Chicken%20Little%20and%20Group%20Theo
> ry.html
> The understanding here seems typical for physicists who do not understand what
> is formal theory or system. Even in Princeton when Goedel was an associated
> professor yet many years after his proof of incompletness, some professor said
> in front of him that logic did not make any progress since the age of
> Aristotle. Many of today's physicists are the same as that "some (stupid)
> professor."

        I completely agree! It is sad that the Truth is ignored when it is not
convenient! I am still puzzled by the total apathy that is being shown
to thinkers such as yourself and Michael C. Mackey!



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