**Stephen P. King** (*stephenk1@home.com*)

*Fri, 22 Oct 1999 11:07:56 -0400*

**Messages sorted by:**[ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ]**Next message:**Hitoshi Kitada: "[time 951] Re: [time 950] Re: [time 949] Re: [time 944] Goedel's incompleteness implies the existence of time"**Previous message:**Hitoshi Kitada: "[time 949] Re: [time 944] Goedel's incompleteness implies the existence of time"

Dear Hitoshi,

Hitoshi Kitada wrote:

*>
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*> Dear Stephen,
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*>
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*> Thanks for your comments and helps in English. I corrected some points as in
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*> the LaTeX file attached.
*

It is my pleasure to help! :-) One final editorial note: Perhaps the

word "general" would be better that "generic" in the phrase: "Thus [P_L,

P] = P_L P - P P_L = 0. But in generic this does not hold because ..."

The final sentence of the paper is especially dear to me: "...time is

an indefinite desire to reach the balance that only the Universe [in

itself] has." I see this as being the key to the phenomenology of time

as expressed in the 'tension' of dissimilarity between the whole of the

Universe as a totality and the parts thereof. I am reminded of my

definitions of the word universe:

1) The Totality of Existence, All that exists. (This is the "objective"

definition")

2) The sum, set or class of all observables that a given observer may be

aware, measure, etc. of. (This is the "subjective definition")

These two aspects, I believe are expressions of the fundamental

dichotomy at the heart of observation and the reason why time is a

subjective phenomena. There is also the possibility that the difficult

issues of entropy and potentials will be better understood in the light

of this brilliant statement by Hitoshi!

*> ----- Original Message -----
*

*> From: Stephen P. King <stephenk1@home.com>
*

*> To: Hitoshi Kitada <hitoshi@kitada.com>
*

*> Sent: Friday, October 22, 1999 5:21 AM
*

*> Subject: [time 944] Goedel's incompleteness implies the existence of time
*

*>
*

*> > Hi Hitoshi,
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*> >
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*> > I am presenting this version of your paper with some editorial comments
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*> > and pointers in [boxes] Egrammatical suggestions are not labeled EUmm,
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*> > it looks like I messed up the formatting of the original! :-(
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*> >
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*> >
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*> > >>Here is some excerpt from time_VI.tex. LaTeX file is attached, which is
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*> > available also at
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*> >
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*> > http://www.kitada.com/time_VI.tex (the link is not yet made in
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*> > index.html)
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*> >
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*> > A key is Goedel's incompleteness theorem, which assures the existence of
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*> > (local) time.>>
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*> >
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*> > [SPK]
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*> > We need to make this solid! I agree completely with the notion, having
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*> > independently arrived at a similar conclusion, but it appears that the
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*> > applicability of Goedel's Incompleteness theorem (GIT) to the Universe
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*> > is controversial to many people. I fail to see the problem that such
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*> > would have except perhaps they would like a solid, read "explicit",
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*> > mathematical relationship between physics and logic, which is the domain
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*> > of GIT]
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*> > We need to show that "observer cannot know that $E$ exists" follows
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*> > explicitly from "The theory of physics therefore includes an undecidable
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*> > proposition";
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*>
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*> This should be read
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*>
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*> > "observer cannot know that $E$ exists" contradicts
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*> > "The theory of physics therefore includes an undecidable
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*> > proposition"
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*>
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*> The point in this problem would be to show that one i.e. observer can
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*> construct a proposition that proves the existence of the exterior $E$. I
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*> changed the descriptions in sections 2 and 5 as in the attached file.
*

I agree! This is excellent. For all Time List readers there is a

discussion of the implications of Goedel's Incompleteness Theorem at:

http://x29.deja.com/viewthread.xp?AN=445933001&search=thread&svcclass=dnyr&ST=PS&CONTEXT=940602804.2060124203&HIT_CONTEXT=940602804.2060124203&HIT_NUM=0&recnum=%3c36CC02E1.167E@cns.mpg.de%3e%231/1&group=sci.physics.research&frpage=getdoc.xp&back=clarinet

*> > this must be air-tight! I believe that your idea here is
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*> > correct, but I believe that we must be able to defend against the
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*> > skepticism. Here is an example:
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*> >
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*> http://members.home.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/Chicken%20Little%20and%20Group%20Theo
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*> ry.html
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*>
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*> The understanding here seems typical for physicists who do not understand what
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*> is formal theory or system. Even in Princeton when Goedel was an associated
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*> professor yet many years after his proof of incompletness, some professor said
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*> in front of him that logic did not make any progress since the age of
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*> Aristotle. Many of today's physicists are the same as that "some (stupid)
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*> professor."
*

I completely agree! It is sad that the Truth is ignored when it is not

convenient! I am still puzzled by the total apathy that is being shown

to thinkers such as yourself and Michael C. Mackey!

Later,

Stephen

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