Hitoshi Kitada (firstname.lastname@example.org)
Mon, 29 Nov 1999 03:10:58 +0900
Dear Robert and all,
ca314159 <email@example.com> wrote:
Subject: [time 1049] Re: [time 1047] Re: [time 1045] Re: [time 1044] The
> Dear Hitoshi and all,
> Hitoshi Kitada wrote:
> > Dear Robert and all,
> > ca314159 <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote:
> > > Stephen and I had a very long talk. And some analogies which came
> > > out, may be of interest. Particularly the last example.
> > >
> > > There is a difference between ray optics as a particle model
> > > (in terms of the orthogonality of the rays) and the Huygens
> > > (in terms superposition and interference of waves).
> > >
> > > There is a difference between filtered light (which is received
> > > only subtractively through filters) and reflected light which
> > > is received superpositionally (in terms of additive and subtractive
> > > interference.
> > >
> > > There is a difference between and electric circuit modelled
> > > in terms of one the possible paths for an electron to follow
> > > and the circuit modelled as a whole.
> > >
> > > There is the difference between recorded (orthogonalized) time
> > > and dynamic time (superpositional time).
> > >
> > > The former cases are all distinctive or orthogonalized (particle)
> > > while that later models all allow for combinatorics in the
> > > sense of interference (wave-like models).
> > Wave models are always approximations and as such I agree with your
> > below fundamentally.
The wave model might be a possibility that could give a consistent formulation
of physics and in this point my statement above might have been too strong.
> > >
> > > There are many other analogs such as in terms of datagrams and streams
> > > in network theory or in terms of fundamental or speculative stocks....
> > >
> > > We try to connect these two extremes in each case together.
> > >
> > > Special Relativity is a particle-like model with local times.
> > > General Relativity is more of a wave-like model with a universal time
> > > but it tries to include Special Relativity as a subset
> > > (wave-like models include particle-like models as subset)
> > >
> > > The particle models can be called slices of the wave-model.
> > Or wave models can approximate the particle models.
> Analogically speaking, I tend to find the "particle model" to be
> enclosed within the "wave model" as the simplest solution, to
> the many of the analogies. Whether this is true in the
> mathematical sense I do not know. You will know better.
I think Mathematics cannot answer this question. It is a problem of formulation
of physics and depends on what one thinks basic.
> > >
> > > The wave-particle model or unified model is a further consideration
> > > of what happens when these two complementary models morph are allowed
> > > into each other.
> > >
> > > There is this same sense in Feynman's path integrals in terms of
> > > local rays(paths) and the more global superposition (the extrema).
> > >
> > > When looking at a painting (reflected light), two people see much
> > > that is the same, and this is their global commonality analogous
> > > to common or global time, and what they don't see in common is due
> > > to superpositional interference and results in their local distinctions
> > > or analogously their local times.
> > Two observers are not synchronous much in this case.
> I get the impression, that the comparison of the
> individual superpositions here, is an entanglement.
I agree. The combination of two observers' local systems L_1 and L_2 is
described by a tensor product \HH_1 x \HH_2 of two Hilbert spaces HH_1 and HH_2
each of which is the Hilbert space of the observers 1 and 2. If entanglement
is understood as a property of tensor products, two observers are described
by an entanglement.
> The entanglement is in terms of superposing the individual
> Two holograms can be placed on top of each other an you
> will see a composite of both pictures, but they do not
> seem to interfere with each other much unless the
> phases are very close;
I feel this feature is an evidence that your "entanglement" can be described by
> which is how they do "non-destructive
> testing" using holography to see where the "defects" are
> between one standard view and a test object. The defects
> positions are exposed as an interference pattern; I know this is
> used in automobile tire quality control and testing nuclear
> reactor pipes. The interference pattern only occur positionally
> where the defects deviated from the standard. Where the test
> object and the standard is the same, there is no interference
> and you see both images superposed (in the sense of transparancies
> without interference).
> The "phase difference" in the case of humans likely can
> display much more easy such an "interference pattern",
> but I don't know of any research in this regards. The
> metrics would have to be on a positive and negative scale
> which it probably never occured to sociologists and psychologists
> to do ?
>  I can generate this same effect more easily in the
> macrocosm using images printed on plastic transparencies.
> > >
> > > But if the two people look so closely at the painting that they
> > > cannot each see the superpositional effects, then they will see
> > > frequencies, and not colors. Their _measurements_ and their times
> > > become the same or common because they have eliminated the
> > > interferences. They enter more closely into the same local system
> > > with the same space-time reference.
> > There is much synchronization between the two observers.
> If they have the same orientation.
> Or they will see their
> own views as completely distinct and orthogonal. But they
> can still communicate that difference deterministically
> so in a sense I think that we can call them still local
> with respect to each other ?
I think so.
>  superpositions are deterministic in the sense that they
> can be calculated classically on plane waves, but this
> depends on the "window size", and so in the more general
> quantum mechanical sense superpositions are non-deterministic.
> > > Every electric circuit is based on fundamentals like resisters
> > > capacitors and inductors. The different impedances create different
> > > currents and so different "times" in the different branches of the
> > > circuit.
> > The observed "circuit" is divided into several sublocal systems in this
> > observation.
> Here, I need more help from you on terminology. What distinguishes
> sublocal from local ? Is the local system a sublocal system to another
> local system and so on ? ....
A local system L is an object of observation. It is determined each time when
one observes and depends on what one sees at the time. Sublocal systems
are the parts of L on which the observer put one's concern. The results
of observation thus depends on what one sees and on what parts of L
one is interested in on his/her observation.
> > > These different times in each branch can only be measured
> > > statically by closing off power access to all the other branches.
> > > This "branch time", expressed in terms of resistance or current, is
> > > reversable because of the static nature of its measurment.
> > This is the case as the branch time is exactly the local time of each
> > system. In the same sense the global time of the circuit as a whole is also
> > reversible if it means the local time of the circuit.
> Hmm, I'm starting to see what you are saying.
> Could I say that your model is like an optimal mathematical
> "breadboard" upon which many possible circuits can be made ?
> (bread boards being those plug boards for circuit components
> which alleviate alot of soldering)
Yes. The "breadboard" is what one is concerned with and hence is an LS that
is the object of observation, and the "circuit components" are the parts
in which one is interested on one's observation.
> > > (This assumes we have infinite power to test each branch
> > > parametrically; the power supply is distinct from the circuit's
> > > power supply).
> > >
> > > There is also the "global time" of the circuit which
> > > is measureable only dynamically in terms of the overall power
> > > consumption and expressed as the impedance of the circuit
> > > as a whole.
> > This is an observer's time that observes the circuit, and as a
> > subjective local time of the observer it is not reversible.
> The terminology you are using is starting to make sense
> to me. This is very interesting. I wish I knew more mathematics
> so I can follow your details as well. Sounds like you have
> an interesting generic solution. (I'm sure you already knew that :)
Mathematics could not play an essential role.
Physics has been attempting to explain the problem of direction or orientation
of time without introducing any of subjectivity. This has been the tradition in
physics since the age of Galilei. My point is that the direction of time is a
subjective notion. Even if one had a time machine and traveled to the past,
his/her time would "increase" and he/she would age. During the time travel
one sees/observes the outside, and measures things' motions by one's time and
would observe that things follow the reverse direction of one's time. This would
suggest that the direction of time cannot be explained by objective attitude
with ignoring that the observation is a subjective deed. If one's time did not
increase, one could not know that he/she lives during the travel: If one's time
were reversed during the trip, one would forget what had happened and
therefore did not recognize his/her own existence. My reasoning/intuition
tells, at least to me, that there must be a subjective direction of reference
for each observer and physics' attempts to explain the direction of time
by mere objective reasoning are endless circular arguments. My claim
is that the traditional "working hypothesis" of physics that things can be
explained by paying attention merely on "objective aspects" of things
ended its role and that the next "working hypothesis" should be that
subjectivity plays an essential role in physics or metasciences (after
There may be an objection to this standpoint. However, as physics is a humans'
reasoning on what they observe, someone must have the responsibility for what
they say about their observation. That "someone" responsible for the reasoning
is the "subjectivity."
> > > This global time is not reversible because of the
> > > dynamic nature of its measurement. (This assumes there is
> > > a finite amount of power in the power supply when we test the
> > > circuit as whole; we use the circuits power supply when we
> > > test the circuit. We do not use an separate power supply)
> > >
> > > The impedance is reactance + resistance. The reactance
> > > is in terms of alternating current which obeys the superposition
> > > principle and direct currents under resistance obey the mixture
> > > or filtering principle.
> > >
> > > When we try to combine dynamic and static measurements, we
> > > are performing a power measurement which has an inherent
> > > uncertainty in it at some level. But in a practical (empirical)
> > > sense, it's not terribly important for electric circuits,
> > Yes, as we know when we see things there are not serious problems or
> > discommunications among plural observers. If another observer would be in
> > Andromeda galaxy, there might be a problem in communication.
> > > only at a theoretical level does it become important when
> > > we try to unify all the analogs under the same model.
> > >
> > Yes. And I proposed a theoretical distinction between the local times and
> > usually conceived space-time.
> Your model sounds very right to me as far as I can understand it.
> It seems to have the necessary generality and specificity
> that any unified view must cover.
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