[time 999] Re: [time 988] Communications in four-dimensional society

Matti Pitkanen (matpitka@pcu.helsinki.fi)
Wed, 17 Nov 1999 08:46:56 +0200 (EET)

Hi Stephen,
Thank your for very thoughtful comments. My replies are below.

On Tue, 16 Nov 1999, Stephen Paul King wrote:

> Dear Matti,
> I apologize for the delay... First I would like to ask if you are
> familiar with John G. Cramer's ideas?
> http://faculty.washington.edu/jcramer/theory.html
> http://www.npl.washington.edu:80/npl/int_rep/qm_nl.html

I encountered with his ideas in second discussion group. I tried to
understand them but was not convinced: perhaps I am dogmatic.
In any case, I remember that he talked about classical
fields (or rather Schrodinger amplitudes) propagating backwards and
forwards in time. But of course, at the same spacetime sheet and this does
not make sense to me.

In fact, I have been very sceptic about even talking of classical time
direction of propagation earlier but now I think that there is
correlation. Quantum jumps creating spacetime sheet with negative/positive
time orientation serving as spacetime bridge between sender and
receiver corresponds to sending a classical message to past/future. This
picture is also consistent with Feynmann diagrammatic intuition.

> Matti Pitkänen wrote:
> >
> > Communications in four-dimensional society
> >
> > TGD based theory of consciousness leads to the idea of
> > four-dimensional society formed by cognitive spacetime sheets
> > glued everywhere on the material spacetime surface.
> > The idea about four-dimensional society makes really sense only if
> > communication between members of this society is possible. It would be
> > even better if communication could occur in "real subjective time". This
> > seems to be possible in principle as the following arguments show.
> I believe that this idea offers a good scenario to understand possible
> relationships between communications and time.
> > 1. Communication method
> >
> > A simple model for real time communication between societies
> > of future and past is based on the possibility of spacetime sheets
> > of negative time orientation having negative energy density. It
> > seems natural to assume that at least classical signals propagate
> > from geometric future to geometric past along these spacetime sheets.
> Can it be proven that such retrograde "classical signals" can not be
> used to create a perpetual motion machine of the second kind?
> http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/asc/Second_therm.html
> http://www.voicenet.com/~eric/z/miltperp.htm

I think that pertual motion machines are excluded by the
dissipation caused by quantum jumps between quantum histories.
They replace classical spacetimes with new ones and there are
could reason to expect that these negative energy spacetime
sheets have "subjective" lifetime of finite number of quantum

> It should be obvious that the possibility of retrograde classical
> signals and typical assumptions of SR would allow for the construction
> of a Maxwell's Demon type device that uses the information about the
> "future states" of the device to extract energy from a heat reservoir
> without the generation of entropy! It would be like a >100% efficient
> heat pump!

Negative energy spacetime sheets make possible generation
of energy from vacuum . Amusingly, the N-machine of DePalma and space
energy generator of Tewari are claimed to be examples of machines
with efficiency larger than 100 per cent. I however think
that the finite lifetime of negative energy spacetime sheets
puts severe limits on this kind of machines. You can buy now
and pay later but you must have guarantees that you really pay!
Only very special systems, perhaps biosystems, can provide these
guarantees. [See the chapter "Anomalies associated with spinning bodies
and strong electric fields"].

[I have talked much about "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny" principle
stating that every quantum concept has classical correlate in quantum TGD.
According to this principle generation of negative energy
spacetime sheets is classical counterpart of
generation of virtual particles.]

You argument about using information about future states is very
interesting. In present case the information is about spacetime geometry
rather than quantum states. And future states change quantum jump
by quantum jump so that this information is prophecy about
what would happen if no quantum jumps would occur. This would
suggest that second law cannot be violated. Also the
general picture about time evolution by quantum jumps suggests
this... should I add "strongly".

On the other hand, one could quite well consider the possibility
that the arrow of psychological time is changed locally.
For cognitive spacetime sheets topologically condensed on negative energy
spacetime sheets the arrow of psychological time is
to past in the sense that these sheets drift to geometric
past gradually.
[Why I mention this is that, believe or not, I have
experienced change of arrow of my personal psychological time during
conditions of very severe illness!].

> > As suggested in the chapters "Biosystems as macroscopic quantum systems"
> > and
> > "Quantum antenna hypothesis" of [cbook], negative energy
> > "massless extremals" could make possible coherent motion of
> > living systems. It seems that they could make possible also "real
> > subjective time" communications in four-dimensional society.
> The word "real" is problematic to me! It must be remembered that the
> global view of a superluminal communication network of such a
> four-dimensional society would be equivalent to a preferred inertial
> frame in contradiction to SR, but we may be able to avoid this by using
> an operator type definition of time, e.g. instead of a single absolute
> inertial frame for all members of the society, we use an operator
> relation that considers the energy/time uncertainty relationship. This
> implies that we would need to figure out how to define energy and time
> from the point of view of the individuals.

I do not see this as requirement of preferred inertial frame. The point
is that sender could communicate only with societies *inside his/her
future and past lightcones*. Everything would respect light velocity
and at given spacetime sheets everything would propagate in future
or past only but not both. If propagation would occur in
both directions in same spacetime sheet, I could agree with tour

*Manysheeted spacetime* makes possible
avoid the constraints from finite signal velocity. And
of course, the identification of *energy density as vector field*
rather than components of tensor, which follows
from spacetime as a 4-surface identification.

It is surprising, how much nontrivial consequences one can get
just from basic assumptions of the theory. But only after having
spend 15 years doing calculations!

> I have been thinking in terms of periodic gossiping in graph theory
> (used to model the communications of nodes in a network of computational
> systems) to consider this situation. Perhaps connecting the notions of
> gossiping with spin networks might be fruitful... :-)

Might be.... I think the big question is what *classical communication* is
physically. My belief is that sending involves active quantum jump
since sender is conscious! Receiving is basically passive classical
operation, sensory perception. Communication corresponds to
quantum jump generating spacetime sheet forming spacetime bridge
between sender and receiver. Quantal engineering of spacetime topology.

> > a) Signals to geometric future propagate along spacetime sheets of
> > positive time orientation. These spacetime sheets can correspond
> > to ordinary material spacetime sheets but also almost vacuum
> > spacetime sheets can be considered. In particular, so called "massless
> > extremals" (see the chapter "Quantum antenna hypothesis" of [cbook])
> > are possible.
> I am not familiar with this concept. :-(

 Very briefly, massless extremals are very general
class of solutions to the field equations determined by
Kahler action. They distinguish between TGD and Maxwell theory and are
genuinely nonlinear phenomenon.

a) They represent propagation of
classical fields in, say z-direction. with light velocity. Linear super
position is restricted to wave vectors for which omega= k_z.
This guarantees that there is no dispersion so that massless
extremals are ideal for communication purposes. One could
quite well regard massless extremals as soliton like objects.

b) Massless extremals represent classical gauge fields for which
vacuum gauge currents can be nonvanishing. This is not possible
in Maxwell's electrodynamics. Vacuum em currents, if present, generate
coherent photons (Biophotons of Popp, etc...).

> > b) Signals to the geometric past propagate along spacetime sheets
> > of negative time orientation. Negative energy massless extremals
> > are the optimal choice as far as classical communication is involved.
> > The reason is that signal propagates with maximal signal velocity and
> > consists of Fourier components with same momentum direction so that
> > the shape of pulse is preserved. Polarization direction at a given
> > point of the massless extremal is constant and depends on the
> > transversal coordinates only. Solution involves two arbitrary functions
> > and linear
> > superposition of parallel Fourier components with identical polarization
> > directions is
> > possible. Therefore all possible pulse shapes are possible.
> Can a space of such pulses be defined? What would be its inner product?

Very probably so. In simplest 1+1 dimensional case
solutions of d'Alembertian propagating in, say positive x-direction
form this pulse space. Fourier basis for this space is f_k(x,t) = propto
exp(ik(t-x), k any wave vector.

> > c) What happens in the communication is following. Sender performs
> > quantum jump in which massless extremal of positive/negative energy is
> > generated
> > representing signal propagating to geometric future/past. Some
> > standardized
> > alphabet formed by the pulse forms for massless extremals: two basic
> > pulse shapes identifiable as binary digits is the simplest choice.
> > Receiver interacts with the massless extremal purely classically to
> > receive the message and generates massless extremal propagating
> > to geometric past/future as a reply. The difference between sender
> > and receiver is that sender performs quantum jump whereas receiver
> > just acts purely classically to receive the message.
> This looks a lot like Cramer's proposal! What I have been thinking is
> that space-times structures are constructed by this type of
> q-jump/communication! The light-cones are defined by the solutions to
> optimization/ minimization computations that are dual to thermodynamic
> entropy extremizations. This idea follows along similar lines as
> Frieden's EFI principle...
I think You are correct about relationship with Cramer's theory.
In Cramer's theory backwards and forwards and anywards propagation
takes place *one same spacetime sheet*: this is something which
I do not like.

Note also the relationship to Sarfatti's ideas about backwards
propagation in time against which I have felt strong disgust(;-).

> > d) The commmunication is on-line "real subjective time"
> > communication. There is no need to wait for next billion
> > years for reply and members of cultures separated by billions of
> > light years can have real time chat about their family problems.
> That looks like Sagan's Contact scenario! :-)
It does! I have read Sagan's book and enjoyed it. I should
read it again and look what he says.

> > 2. Anomalies related to spinning astrophysical
> > objects as empirical support for the idea
> >
> > The proposed communication method could be regarded as mere
> > wild science fiction unless there were empirical support for the possibility
> > of communication from geometric future to geometric past.
> That is very true! But isn't it neat how sci-fi anticipates physics...
> :-)
You are absolutely right! Or I hope so! I am not yet absolutely
sure whether my proposal is physics(;-)!

> > In the articles [Nachalov1,Nachalov2] various
> > anomalies related to spinning objects are reviewed. These
> > anomalies are discussed in the chapter "Anomalies related
> > to spinning bodies and strong electric fields" of [padTGD].
> > There are also anomalies related to spining astrophysical objects.
> > Kozyrev [Kozyrev] has conducted astronomical observations using a
> > receiving
> > system of a new type. These observations have been replicated
> > later by other groups [Lavrentiev,Akimov].
> > These anomalies give also support for the possibility of the
> > signal propagation backwards in time.
> I will be trying to get copies of these papers...
Most of them are in Russian. The html articles of Nachalov are in
English. In any case, Kozyrev has been
respected scientist, not some madman from Finland(;-). I saw his
publication record and he has published his works in Nature.

There are very many Russian physicists involved with attempt to
develop so called "torsion field" as explanation for the gravitational
anomalies related to spinning bodies. The natural identification
of torsion field is as Z^0 magnetic field in TGD framework.

> > a) When a telescope was directed at a certain star, the detector
> > positioned within the telescope registered the incoming signal even if the
> > main mirror
> > of the telescope was shieded by metal screens. This indicated that
> > electromagnetic
> > waves were accompanied by some waves not shielded by the metal screens.
> >
> > b) When the telescope was directed to the true position, the signal
> > became stronger. As if there had been almost instantaneous propagation
> > of signal with velocity billions times greater than the velocity of light!
> >
> > c) When the telescope was directed to a position symmetrical with
> > respect to visible
> > position, again signal was detected: the imaginative interpretation was that
> > the signal came from future position of the star!
> This is similar to Feynman's absorber theory?

This would occur if signals would proceed from future to past.
I do not remember what was assumed in Feynmann's absorber theory: probably
kind of symmetry between future.

> > Leaving aside the objections of a typical sceptic and the question whether
> > the effect is real
> > or not, one can ask whether the concepts of manysheeted spacetime
> > concept and
> > classical Z^0 field could somehow give rise to this kind of effect in
> > strong conflict
> > with conventional wisdom.
> The Z^0 field is the electroweak field?

Z^0 quantum is one of the heavy companions of photon. It is
em neutral. TGD differs from standard model in that
classical Z^0 fields are possible so that new macroscopic
*purely classical* long range interaction becomes possible.

[Note: in TGD classical fields are an essential and well defined
part of quantum theory unlike in QFT where only quantum fields
belong to ontology].

> > a) Propagating photons (extremely tiny 3-surface glued to
> > macroscopic spacetime sheet) affect the spacetime
> > sheet and could generate propagating classical Z^0 field
> > causing the effect in the detector.
> >
> > b) The strong signal from the true position could
> > have explanation in terms of a coherent classical Z^0 field
> > of astronomical size. This kind of coherence is forced
> > by the imbeddability requirement and was coined as topological
> > field quantization in the chapter ``Macroscopic quantum phases and
> > CP_2 geometry'' of [TGD]. One can intuitively understand it as follows.
> > In TGD elementary particle is replaced with 3-surface, which can have
> > arbitrarily large size and absolution minimization of Kaehler action forces
> > 3-surface to behave coherently like single particle (in case
> > that it does not so, it decomposes into disjoint components!).
> This last aspect is very interesting! Can we think of superconduction
> situations in these terms? Does it give us a way to think of anyons and
> supersymmetry? (http://risc.ftj.agh.edu.pl/~bozon/plde/listof.html)

I have actually proposed general models for superconductivity, super
fluidity and quantum Hall effect based on the concept of topological
field quantum (see the chapter "CP_2 geometry and macroscopic
quantum phases" of TGD:

Anyons appear in the standard explanation of Quantum Hall effect, I
proposed more concrete "almost classical" explanation for
the fractional quantu Hall effect, which does not involve anyons.

Just few months ago I ended up with the model of high Tc superconductivity
relying on manysheeted spacetime concept. (High Tc superconductivity is
still poorly understood phenomenon in standard physics framework.)

> > The results of Kozyrev are not the only evidence for this kind
> > of behaviour. Total eclipses of the Sun by the Moon reach maximum
> > eclipse about 40 seconds before Sun's and Moon's gravitational forces
> > on Earth align [Flandern]. If gravity is a propagating force, this 3-body
> > test implies that gravity
> > propagates at least 20 times faster than light. The result is consistent
> > with the assumption that the
> > acceleration of Earth is towards the true instanteous direction of the Sun
> > now, rather than being
> > parallel to the direction of the arriving solar photons now.
> This is very interesting! It could very well be that gravity does not
> actually "propagate" at all! This would explain the negative results of
> gravity wave detectors...

I would say that classical gravity does not propagate
and that graviton exchange does not describe entire
gravitational interaction! Classical nonpropagating
gravitational fields would determine the almost static Coulomb part of
gravitational interaction and would represent bound state aspects of
gravitationally bound system. Gravitons (which
corresponds to these tiny CP_2 type extremals) would give just small
perturbative correction to this background.

This is not actually new. Photon exchange gives small correction to the
behaviour of atoms described using Schrodinger equation and instantaneous
Coulomb potential. There is no known description of hydrogen atom
starting directly form QED and it might well be that this
description does not simply exist.

It might be that "massless extremals" are the only classical
spacetime sheets having interpretation in terms of
classical signals propagating along them.

The remaining spacetime sheets would be topological field quanta.
Topological field quantization says that
spacetime sheets behave like single coherent wholes. Topological
field quantum is characterized by a handfull of "topological quantum
numbers", spin like integers, frequencies
and wave vectors which characterize the vacuum. Again
a purely TGD:eish effect. I have long ago speculated
that these topological quantum numbers are crucial for
biological information storage (whatever that might mean!).


> > TGD based explanation is that the changes of the classical gravitational
> > field are not propagating effects but that the classical gravitational
> > field behaves like single coherent whole (it could of course
> > contain also small propagating part).
> >
> > c) The signal in the symmetric position could indeed come from geometric
> > future. Only classical gauge fields can carry this kind
> > of signal. An attractive possibility is that classical Z^0 field
> > propagated along spacetime sheet with negative time orientation:
> > for negative time orientation the propagation is expected to occur
> > backwards in time.
> >
> > References
> >
> > [Akimov]
> > Akimov A.E., Kovalchuk G.U., Medvedev V.G., Oleinik V.K., Pugach A.F.
> > "Predvaritelnyye rezultaty astronomicheskikh nabludenii po
> > metodike N.A.Kozyreva.", Kiev, 1992, GAO AN Ukrainy, preprint \# GAO-92-5R.
> > (russian) ("Preliminary results of astronomical
> > observations using N.A.Kozyrev's method.")
> >
> > [van Flandern]
> > T. van Flandern (1998), Phys. Lett. A, vol. 250, no 1-3
> > p. 1-11.
> >
> > [Kozyrev] N.A. Kozyrev (1991)
> > "Izbrannyye trudy.", Leningrad State University,
> > 448 p. (russian) ("Selected works."
> >
> > [Lavrentiev]
> > Lavrentiev M.M., Yeganova I.A., Medvedev V.G., Oleinik V.K., Fominykh S.F.
> > "O skanirovanii zvyeozdnogo neba datchikom Kozyreva."
> > Doklady Akademii Nauk SSSR, 1992, v.323, \# 4. (russian) ("On the
> > scanning of the star sky with Kozyrev's detector.")
> >
> > [Nachalov1]
> > Yu. V. Nachalov (1999)
> > "Theoretical basis of experimental phenomena"
> > http://www.amasci.com/freenrg/tors/.
> >
> > [Nachalov2]
> > Yu. V. Nachalov and A.N. Sokolov (1999)
> > "Experimental investigation of new long-range interactions"
> > http://www.amasci.com/freenrg/tors/.
> >
> > [TGD] M. Pitkaenen (1990)
> > "Topological Geometrodynamics" Internal Report HU-TFT-IR-90-4
> > (Helsinki University).
> > http://www.physics.helsinki.fi/~matpitka/tgd.html.
> >
> > [padTGD]
> > M. Pitkaenen (1995) "Topological
> > Geometrodynamics and p-Adic Numbers". Internal Report HU-TFT-IR-95-5
> > (Helsinki University).
> > http://www.physics.helsinki.fi/~matpitka/padtgd.html.
> >
> > [cbook]
> > M. Pitkaenen (1998) "TGD inspired theory of consciousness
> > with applications to biosystems".
> > http://www.physics.helsinki.fi/~matpitka/cbook.html.
> >
> > Best,
> > MP
> Kindest regards,
> Stephen

Thanks for careful reading of my posting. The comments were
very interesting and to the point.


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