[time 998] Re: [time 988] Communications in four-dimensional society

Stephen Paul King (stephenk1@home.com)
Tue, 16 Nov 1999 13:34:56 -0500

Dear Matti,

        I apologize for the delay... First I would like to ask if you are
familiar with John G. Cramer's ideas?

Matti Pitkänen wrote:
> Communications in four-dimensional society
> TGD based theory of consciousness leads to the idea of
> four-dimensional society formed by cognitive spacetime sheets
> glued everywhere on the material spacetime surface.
> The idea about four-dimensional society makes really sense only if
> communication between members of this society is possible. It would be
> even better if communication could occur in "real subjective time". This
> seems to be possible in principle as the following arguments show.

        I believe that this idea offers a good scenario to understand possible
relationships between communications and time.
> 1. Communication method
> A simple model for real time communication between societies
> of future and past is based on the possibility of spacetime sheets
> of negative time orientation having negative energy density. It
> seems natural to assume that at least classical signals propagate
> from geometric future to geometric past along these spacetime sheets.

        Can it be proven that such retrograde "classical signals" can not be
used to create a perpetual motion machine of the second kind?


        It should be obvious that the possibility of retrograde classical
signals and typical assumptions of SR would allow for the construction
of a Maxwell's Demon type device that uses the information about the
"future states" of the device to extract energy from a heat reservoir
without the generation of entropy! It would be like a >100% efficient
heat pump!

> As suggested in the chapters "Biosystems as macroscopic quantum systems"
> and
> "Quantum antenna hypothesis" of [cbook], negative energy
> "massless extremals" could make possible coherent motion of
> living systems. It seems that they could make possible also "real
> subjective time" communications in four-dimensional society.

        The word "real" is problematic to me! It must be remembered that the
global view of a superluminal communication network of such a
four-dimensional society would be equivalent to a preferred inertial
frame in contradiction to SR, but we may be able to avoid this by using
an operator type definition of time, e.g. instead of a single absolute
inertial frame for all members of the society, we use an operator
relation that considers the energy/time uncertainty relationship. This
implies that we would need to figure out how to define energy and time
from the point of view of the individuals.
        I have been thinking in terms of periodic gossiping in graph theory
(used to model the communications of nodes in a network of computational
systems) to consider this situation. Perhaps connecting the notions of
gossiping with spin networks might be fruitful... :-)

> a) Signals to geometric future propagate along spacetime sheets of
> positive time orientation. These spacetime sheets can correspond
> to ordinary material spacetime sheets but also almost vacuum
> spacetime sheets can be considered. In particular, so called "massless
> extremals" (see the chapter "Quantum antenna hypothesis" of [cbook])
> are possible.

        I am not familiar with this concept. :-(
> b) Signals to the geometric past propagate along spacetime sheets
> of negative time orientation. Negative energy massless extremals
> are the optimal choice as far as classical communication is involved.
> The reason is that signal propagates with maximal signal velocity and
> consists of Fourier components with same momentum direction so that
> the shape of pulse is preserved. Polarization direction at a given
> point of the massless extremal is constant and depends on the
> transversal coordinates only. Solution involves two arbitrary functions
> and linear
> superposition of parallel Fourier components with identical polarization
> directions is
> possible. Therefore all possible pulse shapes are possible.

        Can a space of such pulses be defined? What would be its inner product?
> c) What happens in the communication is following. Sender performs
> quantum jump in which massless extremal of positive/negative energy is
> generated
> representing signal propagating to geometric future/past. Some
> standardized
> alphabet formed by the pulse forms for massless extremals: two basic
> pulse shapes identifiable as binary digits is the simplest choice.
> Receiver interacts with the massless extremal purely classically to
> receive the message and generates massless extremal propagating
> to geometric past/future as a reply. The difference between sender
> and receiver is that sender performs quantum jump whereas receiver
> just acts purely classically to receive the message.

        This looks a lot like Cramer's proposal! What I have been thinking is
that space-times structures are constructed by this type of
q-jump/communication! The light-cones are defined by the solutions to
optimization/ minimization computations that are dual to thermodynamic
entropy extremizations. This idea follows along similar lines as
Frieden's EFI principle...
> d) The commmunication is on-line "real subjective time"
> communication. There is no need to wait for next billion
> years for reply and members of cultures separated by billions of
> light years can have real time chat about their family problems.

        That looks like Sagan's Contact scenario! :-)
> 2. Anomalies related to spinning astrophysical
> objects as empirical support for the idea
> The proposed communication method could be regarded as mere
> wild science fiction unless there were empirical support for the possibility
> of communication from geometric future to geometric past.

        That is very true! But isn't it neat how sci-fi anticipates physics...

> In the articles [Nachalov1,Nachalov2] various
> anomalies related to spinning objects are reviewed. These
> anomalies are discussed in the chapter "Anomalies related
> to spinning bodies and strong electric fields" of [padTGD].
> There are also anomalies related to spining astrophysical objects.
> Kozyrev [Kozyrev] has conducted astronomical observations using a
> receiving
> system of a new type. These observations have been replicated
> later by other groups [Lavrentiev,Akimov].
> These anomalies give also support for the possibility of the
> signal propagation backwards in time.

        I will be trying to get copies of these papers...
> a) When a telescope was directed at a certain star, the detector
> positioned within the telescope registered the incoming signal even if the
> main mirror
> of the telescope was shieded by metal screens. This indicated that
> electromagnetic
> waves were accompanied by some waves not shielded by the metal screens.
> b) When the telescope was directed to the true position, the signal
> became stronger. As if there had been almost instantaneous propagation
> of signal with velocity billions times greater than the velocity of light!
> c) When the telescope was directed to a position symmetrical with respect to
> visible
> position, again signal was detected: the imaginative interpretation was that
> the signal
> came from future position of the star!

        This is similar to Feynman's absorber theory?
> Leaving aside the objections of a typical sceptic and the question whether
> the effect is real
> or not, one can ask whether the concepts of manysheeted spacetime
> concept and
> classical Z^0 field could somehow give rise to this kind of effect in
> strong conflict
> with conventional wisdom.

        The Z^0 field is the electroweak field?
> a) Propagating photons (extremely tiny 3-surface glued to
> macroscopic spacetime sheet) affect the spacetime
> sheet and could generate propagating classical Z^0 field
> causing the effect in the detector.
> b) The strong signal from the true position could
> have explanation in terms of a coherent classical Z^0 field
> of astronomical size. This kind of coherence is forced
> by the imbeddability requirement and was coined as topological
> field quantization in the chapter ``Macroscopic quantum phases and
> CP_2 geometry'' of [TGD]. One can intuitively understand it as follows.
> In TGD elementary particle is replaced with 3-surface, which can have
> arbitrarily large size and absolution minimization of Kaehler action forces
> 3-surface to behave coherently like single particle (in case
> that it does not so, it decomposes into disjoint components!).

        This last aspect is very interesting! Can we think of superconduction
situations in these terms? Does it give us a way to think of anyons and
supersymmetry? (http://risc.ftj.agh.edu.pl/~bozon/plde/listof.html)
> The results of Kozyrev are not the only evidence for this kind
> of behaviour. Total eclipses of the Sun by the Moon reach maximum
> eclipse about 40 seconds before Sun's and Moon's gravitational forces
> on Earth align [Flandern]. If gravity is a propagating force, this 3-body
> test implies that gravity
> propagates at least 20 times faster than light. The result is consistent
> with the assumption that the
> acceleration of Earth is towards the true instanteous direction of the Sun
> now, rather than being
> parallel to the direction of the arriving solar photons now.

        This is very interesting! It could very well be that gravity does not
actually "propagate" at all! This would explain the negative results of
gravity wave detectors...

> TGD based explanation is that the changes of the classical gravitational
> field are not propagating effects but that the classical gravitational
> field behaves like single coherent whole (it could of course
> contain also small propagating part).
> c) The signal in the symmetric position could indeed come from geometric
> future. Only classical gauge fields can carry this kind
> of signal. An attractive possibility is that classical Z^0 field
> propagated along spacetime sheet with negative time orientation:
> for negative time orientation the propagation is expected to occur
> backwards in time.
> References
> [Akimov]
> Akimov A.E., Kovalchuk G.U., Medvedev V.G., Oleinik V.K., Pugach A.F.
> "Predvaritelnyye rezultaty astronomicheskikh nabludenii po
> metodike N.A.Kozyreva.", Kiev, 1992, GAO AN Ukrainy, preprint \# GAO-92-5R.
> (russian) ("Preliminary results of astronomical
> observations using N.A.Kozyrev's method.")
> [van Flandern]
> T. van Flandern (1998), Phys. Lett. A, vol. 250, no 1-3
> p. 1-11.
> [Kozyrev] N.A. Kozyrev (1991)
> "Izbrannyye trudy.", Leningrad State University,
> 448 p. (russian) ("Selected works."
> [Lavrentiev]
> Lavrentiev M.M., Yeganova I.A., Medvedev V.G., Oleinik V.K., Fominykh S.F.
> "O skanirovanii zvyeozdnogo neba datchikom Kozyreva."
> Doklady Akademii Nauk SSSR, 1992, v.323, \# 4. (russian) ("On the
> scanning of the star sky with Kozyrev's detector.")
> [Nachalov1]
> Yu. V. Nachalov (1999)
> "Theoretical basis of experimental phenomena"
> http://www.amasci.com/freenrg/tors/.
> [Nachalov2]
> Yu. V. Nachalov and A.N. Sokolov (1999)
> "Experimental investigation of new long-range interactions"
> http://www.amasci.com/freenrg/tors/.
> [TGD] M. Pitkaenen (1990)
> "Topological Geometrodynamics" Internal Report HU-TFT-IR-90-4
> (Helsinki University).
> http://www.physics.helsinki.fi/~matpitka/tgd.html.
> [padTGD]
> M. Pitkaenen (1995) "Topological
> Geometrodynamics and p-Adic Numbers". Internal Report HU-TFT-IR-95-5
> (Helsinki University).
> http://www.physics.helsinki.fi/~matpitka/padtgd.html.
> [cbook]
> M. Pitkaenen (1998) "TGD inspired theory of consciousness
> with applications to biosystems".
> http://www.physics.helsinki.fi/~matpitka/cbook.html.
> Best,
> MP

Kindest regards,


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