**Stephen Paul King** (*stephenk1@home.com*)

*Tue, 16 Nov 1999 13:34:56 -0500*

**Messages sorted by:**[ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ]**Next message:**Matti Pitkanen: "[time 999] Re: [time 988] Communications in four-dimensional society"**Previous message:**ca314159: "[time 997] Re: [time 995] Local Times"**In reply to:**ca314159: "[time 994] Quantum Computer Simulators"**Next in thread:**Matti Pitkanen: "[time 999] Re: [time 988] Communications in four-dimensional society"

Dear Matti,

I apologize for the delay... First I would like to ask if you are

familiar with John G. Cramer's ideas?

http://faculty.washington.edu/jcramer/theory.html

http://www.npl.washington.edu:80/npl/int_rep/qm_nl.html

Matti Pitkänen wrote:

*>
*

*> Communications in four-dimensional society
*

*>
*

*> TGD based theory of consciousness leads to the idea of
*

*> four-dimensional society formed by cognitive spacetime sheets
*

*> glued everywhere on the material spacetime surface.
*

*> The idea about four-dimensional society makes really sense only if
*

*> communication between members of this society is possible. It would be
*

*> even better if communication could occur in "real subjective time". This
*

*> seems to be possible in principle as the following arguments show.
*

I believe that this idea offers a good scenario to understand possible

relationships between communications and time.

*> 1. Communication method
*

*>
*

*> A simple model for real time communication between societies
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*> of future and past is based on the possibility of spacetime sheets
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*> of negative time orientation having negative energy density. It
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*> seems natural to assume that at least classical signals propagate
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*> from geometric future to geometric past along these spacetime sheets.
*

Can it be proven that such retrograde "classical signals" can not be

used to create a perpetual motion machine of the second kind?

http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/asc/Second_therm.html

http://www.voicenet.com/~eric/z/miltperp.htm

It should be obvious that the possibility of retrograde classical

signals and typical assumptions of SR would allow for the construction

of a Maxwell's Demon type device that uses the information about the

"future states" of the device to extract energy from a heat reservoir

without the generation of entropy! It would be like a >100% efficient

heat pump!

*> As suggested in the chapters "Biosystems as macroscopic quantum systems"
*

*> and
*

*> "Quantum antenna hypothesis" of [cbook], negative energy
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*> "massless extremals" could make possible coherent motion of
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*> living systems. It seems that they could make possible also "real
*

*> subjective time" communications in four-dimensional society.
*

The word "real" is problematic to me! It must be remembered that the

global view of a superluminal communication network of such a

four-dimensional society would be equivalent to a preferred inertial

frame in contradiction to SR, but we may be able to avoid this by using

an operator type definition of time, e.g. instead of a single absolute

inertial frame for all members of the society, we use an operator

relation that considers the energy/time uncertainty relationship. This

implies that we would need to figure out how to define energy and time

from the point of view of the individuals.

I have been thinking in terms of periodic gossiping in graph theory

(used to model the communications of nodes in a network of computational

systems) to consider this situation. Perhaps connecting the notions of

gossiping with spin networks might be fruitful... :-)

*> a) Signals to geometric future propagate along spacetime sheets of
*

*> positive time orientation. These spacetime sheets can correspond
*

*> to ordinary material spacetime sheets but also almost vacuum
*

*> spacetime sheets can be considered. In particular, so called "massless
*

*> extremals" (see the chapter "Quantum antenna hypothesis" of [cbook])
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*> are possible.
*

I am not familiar with this concept. :-(

*> b) Signals to the geometric past propagate along spacetime sheets
*

*> of negative time orientation. Negative energy massless extremals
*

*> are the optimal choice as far as classical communication is involved.
*

*> The reason is that signal propagates with maximal signal velocity and
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*> consists of Fourier components with same momentum direction so that
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*> the shape of pulse is preserved. Polarization direction at a given
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*> point of the massless extremal is constant and depends on the
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*> transversal coordinates only. Solution involves two arbitrary functions
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*> and linear
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*> superposition of parallel Fourier components with identical polarization
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*> directions is
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*> possible. Therefore all possible pulse shapes are possible.
*

Can a space of such pulses be defined? What would be its inner product?

*> c) What happens in the communication is following. Sender performs
*

*> quantum jump in which massless extremal of positive/negative energy is
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*> generated
*

*> representing signal propagating to geometric future/past. Some
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*> standardized
*

*> alphabet formed by the pulse forms for massless extremals: two basic
*

*> pulse shapes identifiable as binary digits is the simplest choice.
*

*> Receiver interacts with the massless extremal purely classically to
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*> receive the message and generates massless extremal propagating
*

*> to geometric past/future as a reply. The difference between sender
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*> and receiver is that sender performs quantum jump whereas receiver
*

*> just acts purely classically to receive the message.
*

This looks a lot like Cramer's proposal! What I have been thinking is

that space-times structures are constructed by this type of

q-jump/communication! The light-cones are defined by the solutions to

optimization/ minimization computations that are dual to thermodynamic

entropy extremizations. This idea follows along similar lines as

Frieden's EFI principle...

*> d) The commmunication is on-line "real subjective time"
*

*> communication. There is no need to wait for next billion
*

*> years for reply and members of cultures separated by billions of
*

*> light years can have real time chat about their family problems.
*

That looks like Sagan's Contact scenario! :-)

*> 2. Anomalies related to spinning astrophysical
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*> objects as empirical support for the idea
*

*>
*

*> The proposed communication method could be regarded as mere
*

*> wild science fiction unless there were empirical support for the possibility
*

*> of communication from geometric future to geometric past.
*

That is very true! But isn't it neat how sci-fi anticipates physics...

:-)

*> In the articles [Nachalov1,Nachalov2] various
*

*> anomalies related to spinning objects are reviewed. These
*

*> anomalies are discussed in the chapter "Anomalies related
*

*> to spinning bodies and strong electric fields" of [padTGD].
*

*> There are also anomalies related to spining astrophysical objects.
*

*> Kozyrev [Kozyrev] has conducted astronomical observations using a
*

*> receiving
*

*> system of a new type. These observations have been replicated
*

*> later by other groups [Lavrentiev,Akimov].
*

*> These anomalies give also support for the possibility of the
*

*> signal propagation backwards in time.
*

I will be trying to get copies of these papers...

*> a) When a telescope was directed at a certain star, the detector
*

*> positioned within the telescope registered the incoming signal even if the
*

*> main mirror
*

*> of the telescope was shieded by metal screens. This indicated that
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*> electromagnetic
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*> waves were accompanied by some waves not shielded by the metal screens.
*

*>
*

*> b) When the telescope was directed to the true position, the signal
*

*> became stronger. As if there had been almost instantaneous propagation
*

*> of signal with velocity billions times greater than the velocity of light!
*

*>
*

*> c) When the telescope was directed to a position symmetrical with respect to
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*> visible
*

*> position, again signal was detected: the imaginative interpretation was that
*

*> the signal
*

*> came from future position of the star!
*

This is similar to Feynman's absorber theory?

*> Leaving aside the objections of a typical sceptic and the question whether
*

*> the effect is real
*

*> or not, one can ask whether the concepts of manysheeted spacetime
*

*> concept and
*

*> classical Z^0 field could somehow give rise to this kind of effect in
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*> strong conflict
*

*> with conventional wisdom.
*

The Z^0 field is the electroweak field?

*> a) Propagating photons (extremely tiny 3-surface glued to
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*> macroscopic spacetime sheet) affect the spacetime
*

*> sheet and could generate propagating classical Z^0 field
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*> causing the effect in the detector.
*

*>
*

*> b) The strong signal from the true position could
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*> have explanation in terms of a coherent classical Z^0 field
*

*> of astronomical size. This kind of coherence is forced
*

*> by the imbeddability requirement and was coined as topological
*

*> field quantization in the chapter ``Macroscopic quantum phases and
*

*> CP_2 geometry'' of [TGD]. One can intuitively understand it as follows.
*

*> In TGD elementary particle is replaced with 3-surface, which can have
*

*> arbitrarily large size and absolution minimization of Kaehler action forces
*

*> 3-surface to behave coherently like single particle (in case
*

*> that it does not so, it decomposes into disjoint components!).
*

This last aspect is very interesting! Can we think of superconduction

situations in these terms? Does it give us a way to think of anyons and

supersymmetry? (http://risc.ftj.agh.edu.pl/~bozon/plde/listof.html)

*> The results of Kozyrev are not the only evidence for this kind
*

*> of behaviour. Total eclipses of the Sun by the Moon reach maximum
*

*> eclipse about 40 seconds before Sun's and Moon's gravitational forces
*

*> on Earth align [Flandern]. If gravity is a propagating force, this 3-body
*

*> test implies that gravity
*

*> propagates at least 20 times faster than light. The result is consistent
*

*> with the assumption that the
*

*> acceleration of Earth is towards the true instanteous direction of the Sun
*

*> now, rather than being
*

*> parallel to the direction of the arriving solar photons now.
*

This is very interesting! It could very well be that gravity does not

actually "propagate" at all! This would explain the negative results of

gravity wave detectors...

*> TGD based explanation is that the changes of the classical gravitational
*

*> field are not propagating effects but that the classical gravitational
*

*> field behaves like single coherent whole (it could of course
*

*> contain also small propagating part).
*

*>
*

*> c) The signal in the symmetric position could indeed come from geometric
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*> future. Only classical gauge fields can carry this kind
*

*> of signal. An attractive possibility is that classical Z^0 field
*

*> propagated along spacetime sheet with negative time orientation:
*

*> for negative time orientation the propagation is expected to occur
*

*> backwards in time.
*

*>
*

*> References
*

*>
*

*> [Akimov]
*

*> Akimov A.E., Kovalchuk G.U., Medvedev V.G., Oleinik V.K., Pugach A.F.
*

*> "Predvaritelnyye rezultaty astronomicheskikh nabludenii po
*

*> metodike N.A.Kozyreva.", Kiev, 1992, GAO AN Ukrainy, preprint \# GAO-92-5R.
*

*> (russian) ("Preliminary results of astronomical
*

*> observations using N.A.Kozyrev's method.")
*

*>
*

*> [van Flandern]
*

*> T. van Flandern (1998), Phys. Lett. A, vol. 250, no 1-3
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*> p. 1-11.
*

*>
*

*> [Kozyrev] N.A. Kozyrev (1991)
*

*> "Izbrannyye trudy.", Leningrad State University,
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*> 448 p. (russian) ("Selected works."
*

*>
*

*> [Lavrentiev]
*

*> Lavrentiev M.M., Yeganova I.A., Medvedev V.G., Oleinik V.K., Fominykh S.F.
*

*> "O skanirovanii zvyeozdnogo neba datchikom Kozyreva."
*

*> Doklady Akademii Nauk SSSR, 1992, v.323, \# 4. (russian) ("On the
*

*> scanning of the star sky with Kozyrev's detector.")
*

*>
*

*> [Nachalov1]
*

*> Yu. V. Nachalov (1999)
*

*> "Theoretical basis of experimental phenomena"
*

*> http://www.amasci.com/freenrg/tors/.
*

*>
*

*> [Nachalov2]
*

*> Yu. V. Nachalov and A.N. Sokolov (1999)
*

*> "Experimental investigation of new long-range interactions"
*

*> http://www.amasci.com/freenrg/tors/.
*

*>
*

*> [TGD] M. Pitkaenen (1990)
*

*> "Topological Geometrodynamics" Internal Report HU-TFT-IR-90-4
*

*> (Helsinki University).
*

*> http://www.physics.helsinki.fi/~matpitka/tgd.html.
*

*>
*

*> [padTGD]
*

*> M. Pitkaenen (1995) "Topological
*

*> Geometrodynamics and p-Adic Numbers". Internal Report HU-TFT-IR-95-5
*

*> (Helsinki University).
*

*> http://www.physics.helsinki.fi/~matpitka/padtgd.html.
*

*>
*

*> [cbook]
*

*> M. Pitkaenen (1998) "TGD inspired theory of consciousness
*

*> with applications to biosystems".
*

*> http://www.physics.helsinki.fi/~matpitka/cbook.html.
*

*>
*

*> Best,
*

*> MP
*

Kindest regards,

Stephen

**Next message:**Matti Pitkanen: "[time 999] Re: [time 988] Communications in four-dimensional society"**Previous message:**ca314159: "[time 997] Re: [time 995] Local Times"**In reply to:**ca314159: "[time 994] Quantum Computer Simulators"**Next in thread:**Matti Pitkanen: "[time 999] Re: [time 988] Communications in four-dimensional society"

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